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97 5.7 Vortec- injectors and poppet/spider issue
January 7th, 2014, 9:24 AM
#51
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Computer problem?
Dave459
Yes you EMC controls your Trans, pretty much everything on your vehicle is controlled by it.
Where is your EMC? Is it located under your Power Steering and Brake Fluid resevior? If so it is a trouble area.
If so you need to eliminate the EMC as your problem first.
A replacement (programed to your vin) EMC from ebay cost around $100
If you have a bad EMC, and you have PAS chipped keys (passive antitheft system) your biggest expense will be the cost to reprogram your chipped keys.
I was lucky and did not have that chip crap on my 1997 Express 3500.
My EMC was under those fluid, and was so corroded that the heads of 3 screws had burst off, and was full of corrosion with both wire harnesses corroded to the point where they were nearly impossible to remove from the bottom of the EMC (read my above post)
If you can pull off the top two wire harness from your EMC, but your either of your Bottom ones are Stuck... There is your problem.
After removing my wire harnesses, my EMC was held down by only 2 side clips. (but i had to detach one Power Stering hose to access to remove it)
I hope it is your EMC... it is an easy fix. If you need to replace bad wire harness (definitely read my above post) Good Luck.
Yes you EMC controls your Trans, pretty much everything on your vehicle is controlled by it.
Where is your EMC? Is it located under your Power Steering and Brake Fluid resevior? If so it is a trouble area.
If so you need to eliminate the EMC as your problem first.
A replacement (programed to your vin) EMC from ebay cost around $100
If you have a bad EMC, and you have PAS chipped keys (passive antitheft system) your biggest expense will be the cost to reprogram your chipped keys.
I was lucky and did not have that chip crap on my 1997 Express 3500.
My EMC was under those fluid, and was so corroded that the heads of 3 screws had burst off, and was full of corrosion with both wire harnesses corroded to the point where they were nearly impossible to remove from the bottom of the EMC (read my above post)
If you can pull off the top two wire harness from your EMC, but your either of your Bottom ones are Stuck... There is your problem.
After removing my wire harnesses, my EMC was held down by only 2 side clips. (but i had to detach one Power Stering hose to access to remove it)
I hope it is your EMC... it is an easy fix. If you need to replace bad wire harness (definitely read my above post) Good Luck.
January 8th, 2014, 1:22 PM
#52
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Transmission Converter Clutch o-ring
Thanks for looking, Bowtieman63.
The shudder occurs in high gear, usually after lockup, at speeds of 35 up to about 60. Always at light throttle pressure, as in just maintaining speed on flat ground, attempting slight speed increase or encountering slight uphill grade. Seems to be worse on low humidity days, seldom if ever on a damp day. Give it a little more pedal or back off and it goes away. Mostly occurs on cold starts but occasionally shows up after extended run time (I live out in the country so it's a 30 -60 min drive to darn near everything). Never feel it under cruise control. Once I feel it I usually just work the pedal to avoid that loading scenario and then I may or may not feel it again that day.
Once when it hit, out of frustration I decided to just hold it at that throttle setting to "see what breaks" so I'd know what to fix. It did something strange - it cycled on and off at about 4-5 second even intervals. This went on for 5 or 6 cycles before I gave in and stopped teasing it.
As a side note, the hydrolocking has occasionally been serious enough I wondered if it was going to actually start, barely rolling over 5 or 6 times then firing right up. The few times that has happened has been with a hot motor on a hot day and a restart after only being shut off for 3 - 5 min.
Replaced battery, then starter last year but that was towards the end of the hot weather. The mild hydro locking (1-2 rev's) continues unless the truck has sat for several days. From what I've seen on the 'net and the dark carbon ring on the throttle body and the fuel pump always need to prime when I turn the key, I'm guessing that one is a leaking fuel pressure regulator or spider line.
Based on the info in this forum and others, I bit the bullet yesterday and ordered a new MPI conversion unit. Still, I'm not convinced that is the source of the shudder. While it's likely the cause of the hydrolocking and not-so-great fuel economy, I'm not getting CE lights or trouble codes for misfires.
Thought about the tranny as a potential source and about 6 months ago I did a filter/fluid change and put in synthetic with no detectable difference. Truck history (carfax) indicated it sat for long periods of time over the years, and when I got it every seal on it started leaking after about 300 miles of driving (tranny, diff, engine, power steering). After replacing the speed sensor seal and tailshaft seal I put in some tranny sealer to swell the front seal. That was about 3000 miles before the fluid change. The shudder was there before adding the tranny sealer. Got all the leaks (and some other issues) under control, but the shudder won't give up.
Just a thought....is the tranny in this model controlled by the ECU or a separate box? Have a few other gremlins (like lack of a ground signal for the AC compressor that disappeared last spring) that point to a going-bad ECU.
Bought a used ECU off ebay programmed to my VIN a couple weeks back but haven't gotten it to take the security code yet. Only had time for 2 attempts - didn't think to check bat voltage before attempting, checked after 2nd failure and got 12.05 v - min req per the box seller is spec'd at 12.4v so I can't claim it a failure yet. That last attempt was yesterday. Too darn cold to go out there today to tinker.
Any insight is appreciated.
The shudder occurs in high gear, usually after lockup, at speeds of 35 up to about 60. Always at light throttle pressure, as in just maintaining speed on flat ground, attempting slight speed increase or encountering slight uphill grade. Seems to be worse on low humidity days, seldom if ever on a damp day. Give it a little more pedal or back off and it goes away. Mostly occurs on cold starts but occasionally shows up after extended run time (I live out in the country so it's a 30 -60 min drive to darn near everything). Never feel it under cruise control. Once I feel it I usually just work the pedal to avoid that loading scenario and then I may or may not feel it again that day.
Once when it hit, out of frustration I decided to just hold it at that throttle setting to "see what breaks" so I'd know what to fix. It did something strange - it cycled on and off at about 4-5 second even intervals. This went on for 5 or 6 cycles before I gave in and stopped teasing it.
As a side note, the hydrolocking has occasionally been serious enough I wondered if it was going to actually start, barely rolling over 5 or 6 times then firing right up. The few times that has happened has been with a hot motor on a hot day and a restart after only being shut off for 3 - 5 min.
Replaced battery, then starter last year but that was towards the end of the hot weather. The mild hydro locking (1-2 rev's) continues unless the truck has sat for several days. From what I've seen on the 'net and the dark carbon ring on the throttle body and the fuel pump always need to prime when I turn the key, I'm guessing that one is a leaking fuel pressure regulator or spider line.
Based on the info in this forum and others, I bit the bullet yesterday and ordered a new MPI conversion unit. Still, I'm not convinced that is the source of the shudder. While it's likely the cause of the hydrolocking and not-so-great fuel economy, I'm not getting CE lights or trouble codes for misfires.
Thought about the tranny as a potential source and about 6 months ago I did a filter/fluid change and put in synthetic with no detectable difference. Truck history (carfax) indicated it sat for long periods of time over the years, and when I got it every seal on it started leaking after about 300 miles of driving (tranny, diff, engine, power steering). After replacing the speed sensor seal and tailshaft seal I put in some tranny sealer to swell the front seal. That was about 3000 miles before the fluid change. The shudder was there before adding the tranny sealer. Got all the leaks (and some other issues) under control, but the shudder won't give up.
Just a thought....is the tranny in this model controlled by the ECU or a separate box? Have a few other gremlins (like lack of a ground signal for the AC compressor that disappeared last spring) that point to a going-bad ECU.
Bought a used ECU off ebay programmed to my VIN a couple weeks back but haven't gotten it to take the security code yet. Only had time for 2 attempts - didn't think to check bat voltage before attempting, checked after 2nd failure and got 12.05 v - min req per the box seller is spec'd at 12.4v so I can't claim it a failure yet. That last attempt was yesterday. Too darn cold to go out there today to tinker.
Any insight is appreciated.
January 10th, 2014, 12:49 PM
#53
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My ECM' out on the fenderwell, so out of harm's way, but it's got boneyard markings on so it's been replaced before. I ordered one off Ebay but have yet to get it to take the code. As far as I can tell there is no chip in the key, but that may be why I can't get it to learn the security code. I'll look into that.Thanks!
January 10th, 2014, 1:06 PM
#54
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The input shaft of the transmission has an o-ring that will flatten out over a period of time. this o-ring seals an internal area of the torque converter clutch area. it will cause the clutch to shudder. This will happen at various speeds. Your trans may be shifting into O.D. and then the converter will be trying to lock up. when you are feathering the throttle as you have stated, it will cause the TCC shudder. As the vehicle's TF heats up it becomes thinner and cannot fills voids of wear as well. Have you tried running it in 3rd gear to see if you still have a shudder? The 4L60-e trans uses a band for 2nd and 4th gear. 4th gear also uses clutch packs. If this vehicle sat up a long time, you may have seal damage to piston and lips seals. Adding a seal conditioning additive well swell the seals just as brake fliud will, EXTREME over swelling and result in eventual transmission failure. I would say to try a bottle of LUBEGARD to help aid in heat reduction in the TCC as well as the transmission itself. Just some thoughts....
With as many other seals that were leaking on that truck right after I got it, the scenario you described would not be out of reason. I've used the brake fluid trick on a lot of things but don't remember if I was brave enough to try it on the AT or if I put a seal conditioner in about 12k back. I did one or the other and left it in for about 3k miles then changed the fluid to synthetic. Don't remember the brand but it stopped the front seal from leaking.
While I notice this most often when the vehicle is cold, it has also occurred a time or two (maybe more, got so used to it lost track). Would this support either of those possibilities, one more than the other?
Since i did the fluid change after that, would it be safe to add the LUBGARD at this point? And how much disassemble does it take to get to the seals you mentioned? Are the all in the TC? I'm no stranger to engine rebuilds and diff setups but have never tackled anything on an auto tranny past torque converter change out. Did a Muncie 4 speed about 20 yrs ago for syncos. It was an educational experience (learned to not let the reverse detent ball get loose) but it's still working today.
The clutch pac situation you described does sound internal to the tranny now that I think about it. Is that a job for a guy with 45 yrs of engine experience but 0 AT tools and knowledge?
February 17th, 2014, 1:42 PM
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i just rebuilt one of these trucks and i was having the same problem i was told the ignition modal was out its a whole wire harness that rides along the coloum of the truck if you take the cover behind the stering wheel of you will see it plain as day it is about an inch thick of all different kinds of wires
February 18th, 2014, 6:34 AM
#56
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An update on the :adventure". Have yet to get the truck back on the road to see if the shudder is still there. Replaced the spider fuel injection system with an MPI conversion system from Rock Auto. Committed the cardinal mistake of auto mechanics on a computer controlled engine - I replaced more than one thing at a time. I swapped out cap, rotor, wires and because this engine has a history of leaking intake gaskets, did those as well. The famous powdered metal heater hose connector had broken a few months back and the engine got pretty hot before I noticed it. That may have been when the intake gasket problem started.
The engine had been doing some hydrolocking ever since I bought it so I was not surprised to find the FP regulator and one of the spider lines leaking, I was not surprised to find a little bit of water puddled in the rear half of the intake, but was surprised to find oil puddled there as well. The truck had recently developed and appetite for oil despite no physical leaks so I had ordered valve stem seals with the other parts for this project,even though my long term experience with SB chevy engines shows those seals normally last well over 100k miles (my truck has 72k). The puddle of oil in the intake indicated valve seals weren't the most likely suspects so I haven't yet changed them. My best guess is leaking intake gaskets pulling oil from the valley as there are no vacuum ports on the back half of the intake other than the brake booster take off.
When I got it back together, it had a bad misfire with a CE light and P0300 random misfire code. So, I started going thru the motions to see what the problem was: double and triple checked firing order, replaced cap and rotor with old parts, No change. Checked vacuum 18.5" at idle indicating no vacuum leaks (but reinforcing the leaking intake gasket theory). Bought a fuel pressure gauge at HF and checked the pressure and found it 10 -12 psi lower than the req'd 61 psi min. Being eternally optimistic, I changed the fuel filter. Running pressure went up 1 psi. Ordered a new Delphi fuel pump and replaced the no-name unit on the truck. Very disappointed to see no change in fuel pressure.
Started wondering about the gauge accuracy so I put it on a Tee with a new, brand name pressure gauge I had on hand and put air pressure to it. I was surprised to see the HF gauge gave identical readings as the other gauge though it was a bit slower to react to pressure change. At 60 psi both gauges showed identical readings so the HF gauge was spot-on.
At this point, the only other component in the pressure system was the NEW fuel pressure gauge on the MPI unit, so I ordered a replacement MPI setup after get return authorization from RA. It should be here today. If this solves the Random Misfire, I'll start working on the shudder again. If it doesn't I'm considering dynamite.
The engine had been doing some hydrolocking ever since I bought it so I was not surprised to find the FP regulator and one of the spider lines leaking, I was not surprised to find a little bit of water puddled in the rear half of the intake, but was surprised to find oil puddled there as well. The truck had recently developed and appetite for oil despite no physical leaks so I had ordered valve stem seals with the other parts for this project,even though my long term experience with SB chevy engines shows those seals normally last well over 100k miles (my truck has 72k). The puddle of oil in the intake indicated valve seals weren't the most likely suspects so I haven't yet changed them. My best guess is leaking intake gaskets pulling oil from the valley as there are no vacuum ports on the back half of the intake other than the brake booster take off.
When I got it back together, it had a bad misfire with a CE light and P0300 random misfire code. So, I started going thru the motions to see what the problem was: double and triple checked firing order, replaced cap and rotor with old parts, No change. Checked vacuum 18.5" at idle indicating no vacuum leaks (but reinforcing the leaking intake gasket theory). Bought a fuel pressure gauge at HF and checked the pressure and found it 10 -12 psi lower than the req'd 61 psi min. Being eternally optimistic, I changed the fuel filter. Running pressure went up 1 psi. Ordered a new Delphi fuel pump and replaced the no-name unit on the truck. Very disappointed to see no change in fuel pressure.
Started wondering about the gauge accuracy so I put it on a Tee with a new, brand name pressure gauge I had on hand and put air pressure to it. I was surprised to see the HF gauge gave identical readings as the other gauge though it was a bit slower to react to pressure change. At 60 psi both gauges showed identical readings so the HF gauge was spot-on.
At this point, the only other component in the pressure system was the NEW fuel pressure gauge on the MPI unit, so I ordered a replacement MPI setup after get return authorization from RA. It should be here today. If this solves the Random Misfire, I'll start working on the shudder again. If it doesn't I'm considering dynamite.
July 5th, 2014, 11:31 AM
#57
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Answer to your problem
Remove your valve covers and rolling engine over and see if the two cylinders that are given a problem if the camshaft lobes are burned off and they're not opening much are not opening it all. if that isn't what it is you need to put a spark checker on your engine to find out if something shorting out dropping the spark spark, but worn off camshaft will do exactly what you described.
Have also seen that problem on the Subaru when the EGR valve was bad. Also you can take your car to AutoZone and They will come out with the computer checker for free and read it either Autozone or advanced auto parts I think they both do.
A cracked coil will do what you describe two I have one on the jeep do that and I picked it up for a guy immediately with my INOVA scanner but I have a really good 600 dollar scanner. Cost a guy $27 to fix it so I saved them a lot of money. That was the first job checking out the scanner to see how it worked it worked like a dream. It said mid fire on coil number one. I reset it we drove it down the road reading it live then it miss fired read misfire on coil number one we stopped got out I pulled the wire off number one to see if the engine sounded any different than it did so sure enough it was coil number one. Hope this all helps you.
Rob.
QUOTE=bronzebogen;95656]Also I forgot to mention that I suspect the mechanic who replaced the seal on the air intake manifold didn't do a great job because one of the bolts holding the spider bracket down is missing (Lordy! Could it have gone down into the engine? Methinks I would know if it did, but could that cause a similar problem?)
Also, has anyone seen a schematic on which spider / poppet hose goes to which injector? The mechanic could have gotten them mixed up too for all I know...[/QUOTE]
Have also seen that problem on the Subaru when the EGR valve was bad. Also you can take your car to AutoZone and They will come out with the computer checker for free and read it either Autozone or advanced auto parts I think they both do.
A cracked coil will do what you describe two I have one on the jeep do that and I picked it up for a guy immediately with my INOVA scanner but I have a really good 600 dollar scanner. Cost a guy $27 to fix it so I saved them a lot of money. That was the first job checking out the scanner to see how it worked it worked like a dream. It said mid fire on coil number one. I reset it we drove it down the road reading it live then it miss fired read misfire on coil number one we stopped got out I pulled the wire off number one to see if the engine sounded any different than it did so sure enough it was coil number one. Hope this all helps you.
Rob.
QUOTE=bronzebogen;95656]Also I forgot to mention that I suspect the mechanic who replaced the seal on the air intake manifold didn't do a great job because one of the bolts holding the spider bracket down is missing (Lordy! Could it have gone down into the engine? Methinks I would know if it did, but could that cause a similar problem?)
Also, has anyone seen a schematic on which spider / poppet hose goes to which injector? The mechanic could have gotten them mixed up too for all I know...[/QUOTE]
July 6th, 2014, 7:15 AM
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Remove your valve covers and rolling engine over and see if the two cylinders that are given a problem if the camshaft lobes are burned off and they're not opening much are not opening it all. if that isn't what it is you need to put a spark checker on your engine to find out if something shorting out dropping the spark spark, but worn off camshaft will do exactly what you described.
Have also seen that problem on the Subaru when the EGR valve was bad. Also you can take your car to AutoZone and They will come out with the computer checker for free and read it either Autozone or advanced auto parts I think they both do.
A cracked coil will do what you describe two I have one on the jeep do that and I picked it up for a guy immediately with my INOVA scanner but I have a really good 600 dollar scanner. Cost a guy $27 to fix it so I saved them a lot of money. That was the first job checking out the scanner to see how it worked it worked like a dream. It said mid fire on coil number one. I reset it we drove it down the road reading it live then it miss fired read misfire on coil number one we stopped got out I pulled the wire off number one to see if the engine sounded any different than it did so sure enough it was coil number one. Hope this all helps you.
Rob.
QUOTE=bronzebogen;95656]Also I forgot to mention that I suspect the mechanic who replaced the seal on the air intake manifold didn't do a great job because one of the bolts holding the spider bracket down is missing (Lordy! Could it have gone down into the engine? Methinks I would know if it did, but could that cause a similar problem?)
Also, has anyone seen a schematic on which spider / poppet hose goes to which injector? The mechanic could have gotten them mixed up too for all I know...
Have also seen that problem on the Subaru when the EGR valve was bad. Also you can take your car to AutoZone and They will come out with the computer checker for free and read it either Autozone or advanced auto parts I think they both do.
A cracked coil will do what you describe two I have one on the jeep do that and I picked it up for a guy immediately with my INOVA scanner but I have a really good 600 dollar scanner. Cost a guy $27 to fix it so I saved them a lot of money. That was the first job checking out the scanner to see how it worked it worked like a dream. It said mid fire on coil number one. I reset it we drove it down the road reading it live then it miss fired read misfire on coil number one we stopped got out I pulled the wire off number one to see if the engine sounded any different than it did so sure enough it was coil number one. Hope this all helps you.
Rob.
QUOTE=bronzebogen;95656]Also I forgot to mention that I suspect the mechanic who replaced the seal on the air intake manifold didn't do a great job because one of the bolts holding the spider bracket down is missing (Lordy! Could it have gone down into the engine? Methinks I would know if it did, but could that cause a similar problem?)
Also, has anyone seen a schematic on which spider / poppet hose goes to which injector? The mechanic could have gotten them mixed up too for all I know...
Thanks for the input. In my case, the problem was the NEW spider injector unit. After eliminating everything else that could have occurred in that short a time frame, I decided to order another injector unit.
Problem solved! Truck now runs like a top. Just goes to show that just because something is new doesn't mean it's good to go.
September 16th, 2014, 10:28 PM
#59
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HI Dave,
\Can yuo tell me more about this "MPI" conversion?? My '99 5.7 Vortec started with the random misfire and the "rich bank 1/2" codes a efw weeks ago. Same problme as all previous posters have mentioned..tried all sorts of parts, but it still runs rich ONLY on 2-4-6-8 side; plugs sooty within 5 minutes...1-3-5-7 plugs clean,
We are down to maybe replacing the spider, but your comment on the MPI got my attention. My mechanic is very experienced and he's scratchin his head over this one.
I'm about ready to sell it to the crusher..don;t have much more time for this "shotgun parts" attempt. Nothing is making sense with it.
Thanks,
Bob
\Can yuo tell me more about this "MPI" conversion?? My '99 5.7 Vortec started with the random misfire and the "rich bank 1/2" codes a efw weeks ago. Same problme as all previous posters have mentioned..tried all sorts of parts, but it still runs rich ONLY on 2-4-6-8 side; plugs sooty within 5 minutes...1-3-5-7 plugs clean,
We are down to maybe replacing the spider, but your comment on the MPI got my attention. My mechanic is very experienced and he's scratchin his head over this one.
I'm about ready to sell it to the crusher..don;t have much more time for this "shotgun parts" attempt. Nothing is making sense with it.
Thanks,
Bob
May 1st, 2015, 9:35 PM
#60
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i have the exact problem your talking about
My girlfriends family gave her the truck and said they just had fuel pump replaced so i ruled that out cause once it would start after fuel or starting fluid into throttle body it ran ok and got worse and eventually I cannot push the gas pedal to accelerate when I did drive the truck it was very sluggish and I can only Push about 1/8 of the way down so I took the filter out put inline fuel pump drove great until started stuttering really bad and check engine light was flashing code said cylinder 1 misfire now check the question number 1 cylinder no compression and tapping noise not too bad but sounds like something is wrongcould I have broken injector with too much pressure