manifold gasket fix=motor locked up, etc.
 

I have 92 Chevy G20 HiTop conversion van (all bells & whistles), bought it used and have been fixing probs/needs on a monthly/as I have cash basis. I'm elderly & on fixed income. I was to a point where I needed a manifold gasket. I was losing antifreeze but frequent oil changes showed no antifreeze in oil... so external leak was suspected. On recommendation from trusted friends, an independent mechanic was employed to change manifold gasket. In doing so, 1.5 weeks later following my confronting him about his delay in completing work, he admitted that the motor was locked up. He tried to tell me I needed a new motor and I specifically said ABSOLUTELY NOT..NO!!! A couple of days later I informed him I'd check with his references & those recommending him and they all agreed he either started it without oil or dropped something into the motor. He adamently said he definitely had oil in it when he tried to start it, it'd ran for a few seconds and then following a loud metal bang, it stopped, frozen up. After some severe discussion between us (and another 2 days), he finally "discovered" he'd "dropped a bolt into the manifold when it was open and that was what had pinned the motor." He vowed to fix the problem at his expense and I'm now REALLY concerned about what further damage he may do or have done. 4hr job=now 2weeks+2days without my primary transportation! I don't understand how a bolt dropped down into the manifold could end up IN the motor??? A cylinder or piston??? Can anyone give me an idea of what items I should be concerned about when I pick the van up? I'm thinking I'll take it to a shop I've used and trust to have it checked for reliability but I don't know what to ask and I certainly dont want everything opened up again, and again, and again. Any help would be appreciated. What to listen for? Try to detect the smell of? Ask him about what "cylinder"(s) or piston was affected, what new or used parts he replaced, etc. Also, what if he's replaced the whole motor in the past 3 days... aren't my vehicle's VIN and motor #s messed up at that point? Help please.

Silk; an elderly, disabled, single female ready to pull my hair out at this point

I'm sorry to hear you've had such trouble.

It's really hard to say what may or may not have happened to the engine.
If the mechanic really did drop a bolt into one of the heads, it's likely to have jammed one of the valves. When that piston came up in the cylinder, it may have smacked the valve and damaged the valve, head, piston, connecting rod, and connecting rod bearings. Any pieces that broke off could have caused further damage inside the cylinder, if the engine continued to rotate.

If the engine came to a dead stop while running, it suffered a SERIOUS mechanical stoppage. Anything in that engine could be damaged, ranging from cracked heads, to a cracked block, to a bent/broken connecting rod, to a broken cam shaft, or even damage to the main web that supports the crank shaft. It's possible that the damage was not that serious, but one of the worst things you can ever do to a rotating component/assembly is bring it to a dead stop.

It actually would have been better for the engine to completely ingest the bolt, damage the valves for that cylinder, damage that piston, and damage that cylinder.


Unfortunately, there isn't any really good advice I can offer. Just keep a good eye on the engine when you get the vehicle back. Since nearly anything in the engine could have been damaged, nearly any system could show symptoms of a problem.

Be sure to get a signed, written description of what happened, exactly what work was performed to correct the problem, what parts were replaced, and any follow-up work/maintenance that may be required. From there, other shops, friends, or members on this forum may be able to help you further.

As for the possible VIN/engine mismatch, should it be replaced -
It isn't really a problem, unless you're dealing with collectors' vehicles. Maybe 0.1% of used car buyers actually check the numbers. Even then, most won't care about the mismatch, if you have documentation to show when and why the engine was replaced.

Thank you Squigie; I truly appreciate your open, honest and informative info. This guy (wont call him a mechanic at his point) has lied so many times about his work, my van, etc... including the bolt I now learn. I went to his house to ask specifically how a bolt dropped into a manifold could end up IN the engine as I didn't understand. He NOW says that it was a washer that was sitting loose near the A/C that fell off and down into the cylinder (#1, so he says) when he was blowing off the engine before he started any work. Obviously he thinks I'm not smart enough to put 2+2 together or remember that he said he always blows off engine before beginning any work and then stuffs cylinders to prevent anything from from falling in and the fact that the washer (or anything else) wouldn't have fallen in if the cylinders were actually protected to begin with.

Finally got my van back though ~ running. Sat he said he'd ordered parts to finish work and they'd be delivered "tomorrow" "Sunday? On Labor Day Weekend?" Sun I did driveby of his house/my van; saw him spraying something that looked like large 8cyl gasket but obviously working on my van. Monday 10ish I call to ask what's up; he tells me he has to go to town (very small town) to get more parts ~ I'm thinking, to where?--Everything is closed for Labor Day and WalMart doesn't routinely carry parts for a 92 G20 van! When I ask him when he thinks it might be finished, he says (again) "I'll call you" Later in the day I decide I've had enough, I deserve at least a "guestimate" and I'm entitled to know what he's doing, putting in, taking off, etc. of my van. He may be free to do what's necessary to correct his mistake but its MY property he's doing it to ~ so I go over to his house. He tells me he was just about to call me as everything was working OK but it'd only ran for 10mins before just stopping (without incident this time). Only thing he would say about his work was that I had a new head gasket, nothing more of what his repair entailed and he was ugly about that; no details, etc. I returned home and an hour later he calls to say its fixed and he's driving it over to me. I tell him NO, let me go to the bank, get $ for his work on the manifold gasket and I'll come get my van. He's adament: NO, he's bringing it right now, he will NOT accept a single dime for any of his work/he just wants the whole thing done and over with. I go get my neighbor to come be a witness, he delivers the van (he's all hot, huffy, puffed out indiginant and in a rage), again says he will not accept a dime because he was so PO'd that I'd "threatened" him earlier when I told him his actions were bordering on Criminal charges of Larceny by Fraudulent Inducement if he didn't at least make an attempt to 'unfreeze' my motor by fixing his screwup, and he just wanted the whole mess gone and he huffs/puffs off to his ride waiting for him. (As it turns out, had I NOT said those things to him he would have continued to refuse to 'unfreeze' my motor by fixing his mistake and continued to insist I have him put in a new motor. He was also worried the cops would be called as he works from home, unlicensed & in "NO biz" neighborhood ~ yes, MY dumb in the first place but there are many who DO know what they're doing in his similar circumstances. I have nothing against "shade tree mechanics" some are the best around =)

My neighbor and I go over all of van; everything is there and working at least as good as when I took it to him but there's a smell; she says she thinks it's hot antifreeze. (She's better at this than me; she drove truck for several years.) I start the van (and its obviously not my own starter but it works), move it to my driveway, put down butcher paper underneath it to let it sit overnight it so I can take it to my original biz mechanic today. All fluid levels checked by me and OK with Antifreeze overflow container marked with masking tape to avoid guesswork. This morning, a couple of what looks like oil drips... but Antifreeze overflow container shows a decrease in fluid ~ don't know if its just a matter of it distributing itself or if its still leaking.

Taking the van to my original mechanic, begging him to forgive me for going elsewhere, telling him what I know of what's happened, show him the butcher paper, giving him a Chronology of what occurred and asking him to do what he can to double check it for me as best as possible without redoing anything that may or may not have been done. Will go from there. (Regardless I think he still deserves $ for his gasket work per our agreement, IF in fact the gasket was replaced ~ but don't know how my "REAL" mechanic will be able to determine this...??)

I'm thinking I'll ask for an engine compression test ~ if nothing else other than to establish a baseline at this point. Good idea or not?

Thanks again... Silk (still old and upset but greatly relieved the van is back, and running... at least for now =)

PS... Because of other 'manifold gasket' and 'the smell of hot antifreeze' posts on this forum, I'm now scared to dead to even drive the van to my Shop Mechanic for a complete fluid change as well as for him to check it out. But that's the next logical step ~ before I even drive it around the block or to WalMart! =)

Without thoroughly inspecting the engine, it would be difficult to tell whether the oil drips are new oil, old oil, or residual (spills) from the work that was done.

The coolant overflow bottle showing a decreased level overnight isn't surprising. When cylinder heads are removed, some coolant is lost, and air allowed into the system. Once put back together, the dual-action of the radiator cap comes into play (it's both a pressure release valve and a vacuum release valve).

When the engine is run long enough to hit operating temperature for the first time, the system gets pressurized by the heat, and purges excess air through the overflow hose. Then, it sits at that level until the temperature comes back down. The remaining air in the system condenses and "sucks" more antifreeze back into the engine/radiator to replace the air that was pushed out while hot. This happens the for 3-5 hot/cold cycles of the engine, before the coolant level stabilizes and the amount of air in the radiator/engine is at its intended level. (There should always be some air in the radiator, overflow tank, and cylinder heads; and the intake manifold on certain engines.)


If the mechanic that caused the problem is running an unlicensed business and fears that you may try to sue him, it's likely that he did fix the engine properly. Drawing unwanted attention to himself is probably the foremost subject on his mind.

But...
If you can afford it, and don't feel comfortable with the current situation; it's probably worth a second opinion. However, there's not a good way to tell what was repaired and how well it was repaired, without tearing the engine apart again.

Yup... you're so right again Squigie. I most definitely am getting a second option and what I've done is this: I've returned the van to my original mechanic's shop and where I bought the van from (wonderful folk anyway) and told them I was coming in with my tail tucked and on my hands and knees to beg them to please forgive and help me as I'd taken the van "outside the family" and been bent over. I had everything written down, my butcher paper from what the van leaked overnight, and... a box of donuts for snacking while they read my "book"! =) They (appropriately) gave me a ration, we had some good laughs and My Main Man Mike is going to not only do an oil, antifreeze change & lub but is going to put the van on the rack to see if there's any way he can determine what was or was not done. (eg, is the evidence of a gasket maker chalk being used instead of the correct gasket being used, etc.) I've discussed with them the price for an engine compression test and whether that would at least help to establish a baseline from this point for future info and repeat testing in a couple of months, etc. They are going to take care of me and the van as best as possible; I can relax about that ~ at this point. They are expensive but I can relax in the trust I have in their previous work and their honesty and reliability. Also, I gave Mike the full name of Daniel and Mike said "Oh YEAH... I know that guy! He worked here less than 2 weeks and he was let go for poor workmanship and problems he created with customer's vehicles!"

I will report back as to what is/is not found for future forum readers' info and their possible use in the future. However, the one thing My Main Man Mike said is "WHY in the world did he open the engine in the first place if he was simply replacing the manifold gasket???"

Of notable interest: I live in an extremely safe and rather new (yet ungated) area of a small town; there's NEVER been any mischief or problems within a 2 block circumfrence. My 110# Rhodeisan Ridgeback ~ AND (it turns out) my neighbor's full grown 100# Akita both "alerted" to something going on outside at 4am this morning near my yard! (The van was parked in my front drive; my property has 6' chain link fencing with warning signs re the dog, etc.) The neighbor's motion activated security lights went on and my dog (who has has NEVER barked at anything at that time of night) let lose with SERIOUS warnings to what or whoever was outside! Another neighbor heard the commotion, awoke and came outside but saw no cars or anyone... sooo.... ???? =)

WaHOOO ~ 2 hrs after dropping off the van, I'm hearing from My Main Man Mike that I'm to come down and pickup my van. He DOES have some things to discuss with me about it but all seems to be OK for the present time and its OK to drive it... for now. =)

Silk; still old but a lot happier and assured about the safety of driving my van... for now anyway =)