Asking for advice about an 86 silverado suburban timing chain slip.
November 29th, 2021, 4:05 PM
#41
CF Monarch
The old cam gears were aluminum with nylon teeth supposedly to be less noisy or just maybe cheaper to make.I had one chain strip off the nylon teeth causing the engine to die.After replacing the gear it still wouldn't run.What happened was When I tried to restart it I bent a few valves with the pistons because it was out of timing.The pistons were ok but I had to pull both heads and replace a few bent valves.This was on mt 70 P/U with a 350.
November 29th, 2021, 4:25 PM
#42
CF Monarch
Hey henry, I checked the firing order 2x, and had marked not only the cap outsides , but the wires, so that's good, smog pump is good as it was fine prior to my teardown, .....BUT in thinking on it last evening, I remembered that there is this huge 1" dia. Rubber hose that must be a vacuume line at the top front of the left valve cover I forgot to hook up. I got busy on other issues and spaced it out, so it might just be that, as at first , I didn't think it could be the problem, but now think it may be.
Some guys desmog these beasts, and they perform better, but it depends on the state + emissions regulations. I am going to go over in a little while and see what's shaking on this hose issue, + take my distributor wrench and timing light too in case it needs adjusting. I appreciate your comments and concerns, as I never claim to be a mechanic to anyone, I consider my self merely a car enthusiast , but know lots of mechanics that can work faster but I don't feel are as thorough, as I spend hours reading books and researching where others might not. I think the timing set is ****, and nothing is leaking, ,so that's good, and although my non conventional approach might be different, the end result was the same+ is the point. I will get on it asap, and check back later , and I always try to fess up to my shortcomings , as I suspect some folks might hide their stupid mistakes, but to me I don't consider that self deprecating, merely human. In this case, it might just be the ticket. I did notice that tightening up those loose rockers on the left side made the engine not turn over as fast, but it did have some clacking lifters that quieted down, and I could tell it was not at zero lash on some of the push rods prior to. I have a 49 studebaker 6 ( champion) I rebuilt maybe 15 yrs ago, I need to adjust the valves on, in a 43 peep I own that's needing adjusted I had bored .030 over on the pistons. I was tempted to installing a pinto engine since it had self adjusting valves, but felt it would detract from the look of the engine bay. Those flat head sixes need adjusted every 12,000 miles, and this will be the first 12 on the rebuild. I completely rebuilt the whole vehicle upgrading everything I could on all its processes. I think I have 24,000 in that alone total over the years, and it gets attention even sitting undriven. Talk later, thanks again OCH, and the moderator too, for your helpful responses. Soon as I get this running right, it's going to the car wash to clean up the engine crud and grease. Keep your fingers crossed.
Some guys desmog these beasts, and they perform better, but it depends on the state + emissions regulations. I am going to go over in a little while and see what's shaking on this hose issue, + take my distributor wrench and timing light too in case it needs adjusting. I appreciate your comments and concerns, as I never claim to be a mechanic to anyone, I consider my self merely a car enthusiast , but know lots of mechanics that can work faster but I don't feel are as thorough, as I spend hours reading books and researching where others might not. I think the timing set is ****, and nothing is leaking, ,so that's good, and although my non conventional approach might be different, the end result was the same+ is the point. I will get on it asap, and check back later , and I always try to fess up to my shortcomings , as I suspect some folks might hide their stupid mistakes, but to me I don't consider that self deprecating, merely human. In this case, it might just be the ticket. I did notice that tightening up those loose rockers on the left side made the engine not turn over as fast, but it did have some clacking lifters that quieted down, and I could tell it was not at zero lash on some of the push rods prior to. I have a 49 studebaker 6 ( champion) I rebuilt maybe 15 yrs ago, I need to adjust the valves on, in a 43 peep I own that's needing adjusted I had bored .030 over on the pistons. I was tempted to installing a pinto engine since it had self adjusting valves, but felt it would detract from the look of the engine bay. Those flat head sixes need adjusted every 12,000 miles, and this will be the first 12 on the rebuild. I completely rebuilt the whole vehicle upgrading everything I could on all its processes. I think I have 24,000 in that alone total over the years, and it gets attention even sitting undriven. Talk later, thanks again OCH, and the moderator too, for your helpful responses. Soon as I get this running right, it's going to the car wash to clean up the engine crud and grease. Keep your fingers crossed.
My father owned a 1948 Studebaker with (160 cubic inch?) flat I-6 motor, too. Three on the Tree with a manual overdrive pull lever under the dash. Sure wish he hadn't sold it now. My mother owned a nice Chevy Deluxe when they met. The stupid grease monkey doing the oil changes wasn't greasing all the joints, and her whole front steering mechanism had to be replaced. My father made them pay for the repairs on her car, or else all hell would have broken loose. He was a combat veteran of WW II and didn't take anything off of anyone.
November 30th, 2021, 12:48 AM
#43
CF Junior Member
Thread Starter
HENRY, The champion wasn't as big an engine as a commander, but in ww2 they used Studebaker in weasels, or should I say Studebaker built weasels in South Bend. The wife's dad worked there for 35 yrs till it shut down. I got this 43 ford amphib ( peep)out of oregon, with the champion hooked to an adapter plate hooked to its T- 84 transmission, so it had more power than an MB , or GPW, as they had 4 cyl engines in them. Then after I loaned it out to a buddy to take hunting, and he didn't put water and oil in it, It blew up+ I had to rebuild it . I bored it .030 over because those were the only new pistons I could find, but gave it more oomph. I upgraded the T 84 to a T 90 from an M 38 A1, and moved the cross member and lengthened the one drive shaft and shortened the other, from there I put in wagoneer 11 in. Brakes, changed steering, and so on. Too much to post, but then painted it in AK camo colrs with cross roads on the sides and passed it off as a captured vehicle in WW2 reenactments. Got into collecting TR stuff through the years, as it is historical as my dad was on the Thomas Jefferson in WW2 and dropped troops at Normandy , and Okinawa, nearly getting kamikazi'd. Still collect, and got another nice herr stahlhelm just a month or 2 ago. Strange how history is repeating itself . I especially like military awards from ALL Countries . Cars are just another thing I do out of necessity. I had an M-4 Prime mover on our farm I drove around for years I put an AMC V-8 in. We have 97 acres, but sold it to a guy who leases military vehicles to movies who lives in the UK. Had a half track too. I only dabbled a little in it. Stuff like that takes up a lot of room. I now collect company pins , auto memorabilia and stuff like that too, even old scouts + police + fire dept. stuff. Keeps me busy .
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oilcanhenry (December 1st, 2021)
November 30th, 2021, 1:34 AM
#44
CF Junior Member
Thread Starter
To Larry E, thanks for the commentts, as YES I ran fine previously, but , I tightened the valves a little before start up because rockers were off the valve bottoms, as I get the feeling, THAT indicates something(?) , as during trying to start it after it broke down I heard a noise like metal hitting that didn't sound good one time. But I had had a wire that sometimes shut it down, so did not realise then it was the timing chain crapping out. I'm thinking I need to run compression tests on all the cylinders, and that should pinpoint the bad one, or ones. Then I can move from there. But the carb needs some work too. I might get a scope and look into the plug holes. I'm thinking that would be more cutting to the chase. You're right, you can't tell from not being there, but at one point it was idling and all the valves were looking like they were rumning fine on the left side as I had the cover off. But, it doesn't take much , so I feel I should have listened to the mrs. That day ,and just had it towed home in the first place, instead of messing with it, as after I heard the noise, it started belching gas out the carb, but wouldn't fire up. That's when I got the psychic feeling it was the timing set. But I think I have the chain and gears right, as it did idle for awhile without popping till I hit the throttle, then it popped. I also moved the dizzy and shouldn't have, but did see an article state that if you put on a new chain and set it at 0° or after on the timing , it would pop back through the carb. It said to turn it CCW and set it at about 10°BTDC. No matter where I turn it either way, it doesn't change much, so it's why I think I need to test my compression first . Anybody agree ? This P.O.S. could use a new dizzy too if it needs heads. If I tear it apart, then maybe other stuff. What I hate is its got a S_ _ t load of vaccume lines etc. But that's just par for the course.
December 6th, 2021, 12:07 AM
#45
CF Junior Member
Thread Starter
Update on 86 suburban
Took the left side push rods out to see if any were bent, and three or 4 were, pretty badly. I decided to check the rocker *****, and they were worn down to the bottom of the oil grooves. I heard if the rocker ***** are worn it causes trouble, anybody know for sure?
i decided to do this because the rockers kept coming off the valve stems and turning, so I did tighten them a bit thinking it might be the nuts might have come loose, but now doesn't seem the case.
Thought I might replace the rocker ***** and push rods as they are extremely dirty, even if not bent. Rockers had some wear, but not through, ...a little uneven, but unsure if that would be an issue. More or less just a shine. I think replacing the push rods , ***** and adjusting the lash to zero and then half a turn would be prudent on an engine with this many miles....again, anybody agree , or disagree. Or should I spring for new rockers too. . In my opinion, they were not worn through anywhere, and I feel passable. The inside of this engine must be filthy. Almost tempts me to run some kind of cleaner in it that works over time to remove crud. So , that's todays update, please comment if you have any more ideas or advice, but , I have not removed the right side valve cover yet due to, thinking I will do it when I replace those parts.
ai lready took the carb off to do a checkup on it inside, while I'm at it, and I saw plugs available for it, but they did not have o rings, they were dished out concave, but I might just look into those. Thanks again.
i decided to do this because the rockers kept coming off the valve stems and turning, so I did tighten them a bit thinking it might be the nuts might have come loose, but now doesn't seem the case.
Thought I might replace the rocker ***** and push rods as they are extremely dirty, even if not bent. Rockers had some wear, but not through, ...a little uneven, but unsure if that would be an issue. More or less just a shine. I think replacing the push rods , ***** and adjusting the lash to zero and then half a turn would be prudent on an engine with this many miles....again, anybody agree , or disagree. Or should I spring for new rockers too. . In my opinion, they were not worn through anywhere, and I feel passable. The inside of this engine must be filthy. Almost tempts me to run some kind of cleaner in it that works over time to remove crud. So , that's todays update, please comment if you have any more ideas or advice, but , I have not removed the right side valve cover yet due to, thinking I will do it when I replace those parts.
ai lready took the carb off to do a checkup on it inside, while I'm at it, and I saw plugs available for it, but they did not have o rings, they were dished out concave, but I might just look into those. Thanks again.
December 6th, 2021, 3:25 PM
#46
CF Monarch
Took the left side push rods out to see if any were bent, and three or 4 were, pretty badly. I decided to check the rocker *****, and they were worn down to the bottom of the oil grooves. I heard if the rocker ***** are worn it causes trouble, anybody know for sure?
i decided to do this because the rockers kept coming off the valve stems and turning, so I did tighten them a bit thinking it might be the nuts might have come loose, but now doesn't seem the case.
Thought I might replace the rocker ***** and push rods as they are extremely dirty, even if not bent. Rockers had some wear, but not through, ...a little uneven, but unsure if that would be an issue. More or less just a shine. I think replacing the push rods , ***** and adjusting the lash to zero and then half a turn would be prudent on an engine with this many miles....again, anybody agree , or disagree. Or should I spring for new rockers too. . In my opinion, they were not worn through anywhere, and I feel passable. The inside of this engine must be filthy. Almost tempts me to run some kind of cleaner in it that works over time to remove crud. So , that's todays update, please comment if you have any more ideas or advice, but , I have not removed the right side valve cover yet due to, thinking I will do it when I replace those parts.
ai lready took the carb off to do a checkup on it inside, while I'm at it, and I saw plugs available for it, but they did not have o rings, they were dished out concave, but I might just look into those. Thanks again.
i decided to do this because the rockers kept coming off the valve stems and turning, so I did tighten them a bit thinking it might be the nuts might have come loose, but now doesn't seem the case.
Thought I might replace the rocker ***** and push rods as they are extremely dirty, even if not bent. Rockers had some wear, but not through, ...a little uneven, but unsure if that would be an issue. More or less just a shine. I think replacing the push rods , ***** and adjusting the lash to zero and then half a turn would be prudent on an engine with this many miles....again, anybody agree , or disagree. Or should I spring for new rockers too. . In my opinion, they were not worn through anywhere, and I feel passable. The inside of this engine must be filthy. Almost tempts me to run some kind of cleaner in it that works over time to remove crud. So , that's todays update, please comment if you have any more ideas or advice, but , I have not removed the right side valve cover yet due to, thinking I will do it when I replace those parts.
ai lready took the carb off to do a checkup on it inside, while I'm at it, and I saw plugs available for it, but they did not have o rings, they were dished out concave, but I might just look into those. Thanks again.
December 6th, 2021, 4:15 PM
#47
CF Junior Member
Thread Starter
I ordered a set of rocker ***** w/ oil grooves, new locknuts, and pushrods from karlkustoms.com, he has a high rating on ebay, and felt no need to replace the rockers. Thanks henry for your continuing support, those parts are supposed to be here next Sat. Keep your fingers crossed. Henry, am I right to go with half a turn after valve lash on a old engine? These rods were .060 thousandths wall thickness, seems I saw some thicker, but no need for overkill. Luckily no wearing where they go through the heads, or rockers... so that's ok.
On the carb I want to reseal the bottom, and put different primaries in it. Likely another kit. Got some ideas. If it will run , maybe a new dizzy. Gotta get on the dodge soon, its electrical troubles have stymied me so far,I will start with the fusible links I will eventually figure it out.
On the carb I want to reseal the bottom, and put different primaries in it. Likely another kit. Got some ideas. If it will run , maybe a new dizzy. Gotta get on the dodge soon, its electrical troubles have stymied me so far,I will start with the fusible links I will eventually figure it out.
December 6th, 2021, 4:47 PM
#48
CF Junior Member
Thread Starter
Supposed to snow Friday, but you never know, reminds me of when I put a car engine in a 18 ton high speed m-4 myself in the dead of winter when I wore a younger mans clothes, but made oak motor mounts ,used a come along to pull it up a foot or 2 at a time, using a huge home made tripod made from pipe. It was a 68 Am Motors 343 Ambassador V-8. Blew everyones' mind when I drove it under its own power out of the forest knocking down every trees in my way. That winter was sure a cold one. When I got it, home mom cried about it harder, than when I was born. I paid a heavy equiptment company to haul it, on a low boy , then drove it off up the back 60 acres through 2 feet if snow. Still have a 30 Nash, a 35 DeSoto coupe and a 50 DeSoto custom 4 dr. Still up on blocks in the barn. ( got a little off track there for a minute....sorry.)
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oilcanhenry (December 9th, 2021)
December 9th, 2021, 8:24 PM
#49
CF Monarch
Supposed to snow Friday, but you never know, reminds me of when I put a car engine in a 18 ton high speed m-4 myself in the dead of winter when I wore a younger mans clothes, but made oak motor mounts ,used a come along to pull it up a foot or 2 at a time, using a huge home made tripod made from pipe. It was a 68 Am Motors 343 Ambassador V-8. Blew everyones' mind when I drove it under its own power out of the forest knocking down every trees in my way. That winter was sure a cold one. When I got it, home mom cried about it harder, than when I was born. I paid a heavy equiptment company to haul it, on a low boy , then drove it off up the back 60 acres through 2 feet if snow. Still have a 30 Nash, a 35 DeSoto coupe and a 50 DeSoto custom 4 dr. Still up on blocks in the barn. ( got a little off track there for a minute....sorry.)
December 9th, 2021, 11:47 PM
#50
CF Junior Member
Thread Starter
Henry, they were built on an M-4 Tank chassis, but were considered a prime mover. (Prime mover: A vehicle that tows Artillery and such , like 105's - 155mm artillery across the battlefield). They had a waukeshaw145 engine and the torque converters ran with kerosene. They had a gun ring on top to mount a .30 or 50 Cal, with room for a small crew in the back, it was a boxy looking green eyed monster.
I knew a WW2vet who drove one of those in the war. Nice fellow, now long gone.
As a kid I talked a lot to the veterans, +grew up near a rather huge military Depot on the east coast and they rebuilt armored vehicles, carried all types of weapons + munitions and even tested Russian & German tanks, such as the T-34.. they sold all kinds of surplus to the public at auction till 68, and a 1903 rifle then was 12.00.a Garand bayonet was 3.00 then.
The local surplus dealer had hundreds of acres of vehicles and engines etc + used to cut shermans up with a torch for decades for scrap, and found lots of awful stuff inside. He claimed to have invented the first jeep snorkel , using it to ford streams to sneak into town to the bars while training in stateside practice maneuvers . That guy could sure spin a yarn. The General heard of his escapades and hunted him down....he just wanted to know how he did it, and copied his design.
But again I digress, Heres the latest skinny on the Suburban....parts came in, so I will begin installing them as weather permits. Pulled carb apart and found 2 of the 4 top stage down tubes had dropped into the wells,one skinny one and one fat,so I Decided to reseal the second stage plugs with PC-7, SINCE THEY CLAIM IT SEALS GAS TANKS. Book says to tap them in with a plastic hammer, did that before, so I might try another trick this time.
DID THAT, then am letting it harden. It is a round 2 part epoxy stick that mixes in one minute and work time is 3, and hardens in 1.5 hours. Since it was cold today, I worked easier on the time, , so we will see how it works. Everything else looked ok, but now I have to clean it up a bit and get out my loupe to take notes on my jets and metering rod numbers.( just for the file) I don't want to put a kit in it till I see if it will run first. In thinking it over on the timing set, Just hoping I got the crank right in relation to the Cam, and that there are no bent valves, but proofs in the pudding. Studying up on setting the lash etc.
Still calling for snow on Fri. The rest would be redundant to mention.
I knew a WW2vet who drove one of those in the war. Nice fellow, now long gone.
As a kid I talked a lot to the veterans, +grew up near a rather huge military Depot on the east coast and they rebuilt armored vehicles, carried all types of weapons + munitions and even tested Russian & German tanks, such as the T-34.. they sold all kinds of surplus to the public at auction till 68, and a 1903 rifle then was 12.00.a Garand bayonet was 3.00 then.
The local surplus dealer had hundreds of acres of vehicles and engines etc + used to cut shermans up with a torch for decades for scrap, and found lots of awful stuff inside. He claimed to have invented the first jeep snorkel , using it to ford streams to sneak into town to the bars while training in stateside practice maneuvers . That guy could sure spin a yarn. The General heard of his escapades and hunted him down....he just wanted to know how he did it, and copied his design.
But again I digress, Heres the latest skinny on the Suburban....parts came in, so I will begin installing them as weather permits. Pulled carb apart and found 2 of the 4 top stage down tubes had dropped into the wells,one skinny one and one fat,so I Decided to reseal the second stage plugs with PC-7, SINCE THEY CLAIM IT SEALS GAS TANKS. Book says to tap them in with a plastic hammer, did that before, so I might try another trick this time.
DID THAT, then am letting it harden. It is a round 2 part epoxy stick that mixes in one minute and work time is 3, and hardens in 1.5 hours. Since it was cold today, I worked easier on the time, , so we will see how it works. Everything else looked ok, but now I have to clean it up a bit and get out my loupe to take notes on my jets and metering rod numbers.( just for the file) I don't want to put a kit in it till I see if it will run first. In thinking it over on the timing set, Just hoping I got the crank right in relation to the Cam, and that there are no bent valves, but proofs in the pudding. Studying up on setting the lash etc.
Still calling for snow on Fri. The rest would be redundant to mention.