Jay Dee

I got the rubber fel pro last time, but after struggling to get it on, it shifted +still got crimped + leaked, and after a couple years, it got difficult to re-glue after removing + got hard from heat, why they don't make silicone gaskets, is beyond me.,..... so I felt if I just goes on ok, its likely I won't be needing to reusing it because I won't need to open it up again... hopefully. I get what you're saying though , and wondered why auto manufacturers didn't improve the way gaskets went on in so many years of manufacturing, then I realised....U.S. Auto manufacturers have engineered failure into their products for so long, it is the very reason foreign companys are so successful creating superior products that outperform ours, and for American car owners, they just keep us coming back for more stupid gaskets etc. This is especially true for pan gaskets.
EVEN BACK IN WW2 we did not do our due diligence on building tanks. Ours ran on gas, theirs on diesel, ours were fire traps that were drastically undergunned, and their excuse was they just built more of them sacrificing so many unecessary lives , and the german tanks were more fearful of Russian T 34s which design we passed on, and the inventor took it to Russia, where they improved it, except they forgot to put a heater in it. The guy I knew who scrapped them told me of horrible messes inside the ones he quartered with acetelene. Yuck.
Don't get me wrong, I'm nostalgic for Old cars, but certain ones were a pain in the butt to repair. Besides if those who built them had to fix em, they would think it through better. Just my opinion....nobody has to agree. I've seen carbs invented in the 50s that got 50mpg, but carb companys bought the rights and destroyed them. One I saw personally had 3 moveable parts and got 65mpg a gallon THEN, I think if we would have seized the moment at that time, who knows what could have come out of it for today? But gas was 35 cents a gallon when I started driving. Then again 35 cents had value then , as today money is inflated more than 15x, and with the recent 25 trillion printed up, a 100.00 is now worth something like 2.00 in the 60s. I never thought our country would ever be what those ,who we trust to represent us ,have turned it into. ...mass stupidity, .....sorry, but true.

Jay Dee

Ok, got the covers on, had to unbolt the compressor for the left side. Tomorrow, I will check the vacuum lines, ..I have one vacuum 90° fitting the stem broke off in a hose, and won't come out, so have to remove it and buy a new 90. Then gap plugs and install them, then see If I can time it. With the double bolt on water pump, not sure where to shine the light. I'm going to put a little risolin in the oil to clean out the lifters. I HOPE the ground up timing gear tips doesn't clog any of the galleys. Seemed like More oil was coming out the left side push rods than right when It was running without the valve covers, but again, I could be wrong.

Jay Dee

I was able to move the dizzy either way today till I was able to get it to barely idle.in gear Of course timing is off, but decided to test drive it without timing it . It has an AC Solenoid for the idle, and I need to energise it, but for this test, I put it in neutral at lights, and in gear when green. It ran quiet on the valves, and was strong climbing at light throttle. I am not as educated on tuning , but it is the 4MV quadrojet carb . The kid rode along for the test, and got a bit freaked out at how far I drove it, but I felt it needed to seat everything so far, but he said he was impressed at how smoothe it ran. Of course with it not timed right, nor the idle set, or where the air fuel mixture screws where I'm sure they are not too lean, it ran well. Previously this vehicle would at times smoke a bit, but now doesn't, nor are any lifters clacking at all.. I added a tad of Risolin to help clean out the lifters. So looking in the books on it, I need to get the idle up, and go from there to check the timing. Last time to pass emissions I just used. A vacuum gage and set it by highest vacuum and where is sounded best by ear. The guys at the emissions testing place said it was really close when it passed, but at that time stated it was on its Last legs and needed SOME work. The AC has never worked ,but likely needs recharged, but the thing inside is chocked full of tools, and crap I need to clean up as soon as I can get it right to run. And the belts still squeel a bit at times, but less now.
Any advice ON tuning this up now, would be appreciated. But for Christmas we cooked a spiral ham in beer, glazed it, I cooked brussel sprouts off the stem that had looked pretty pekid before I cut the stem bottom on an angle and stuck it in a container of fresh water to revive it, it perked up great after a day or 2, and after steaming them for 30 minutes x- ing them on the bottoms pressing with a knife made a white sharp chedder / romano sauce, mashed sweet potatoes,and regular mashed taters, with ham gravy from the beer renderings, and a homemade carrot cake. Best ham I think I ever had. So Merry Christmas to all on the forum, especially oilcanHenry. Hope you all had a nice day + enjoyed Christmas with the ones you love.( and Green Bay beat the Browns,... barely) My thanks for your support.

Jay Dee

Went to time the suburban today, but my timing light must have a bulb going out in it, because it flashes, but is too weak to see down on the timing cover.
i'll dig out another timing light tomorrow,BUT....the AC fuse circuit on the fuse pannel under the dash is not blown, but there is no power to the idle solenoid, as I think that is the fuse that powers it. The only thing I can see wrong is the green wire to it got partially melted in a piece of loom that layed on the manifold, and the green wire was not shorted, or burned, just got hot and melted the loom on top of it, and the wire is stiff. SO......I think I might need to cut that part out and see if splicing in a new piece of wire solves it. It's circuit runs a 25AMP fuse. Unless the solenoid is run from a different fuse, I assume this is how the idle is set, as there are no other idle screws on the 4MV Carb, except fast idle under the choke. It idled ok where the dizzy is set, but hardly will idle when in gear until it's timed, or I set the idle solenoid. I will test the fuse block for power at the fuse pins, then go from there tomorrow. I don't recall the solenoid not working before. Not sure how I got it to run previously without the idle solenoid. Once I can raise the idle, I can check the timing + other stuff, I plugged up the vacuum line prior to testing but there was no change in RPMs.

Jay Dee

Got the other timing light, works good, although now couldn't see the mark. I found you can look behind the water pump to see the cover marks, so tomorrow I'll paint the mark white. Still can't find why the idle solenoid has no power. Moved the dist, and lost where it ran good, so must start over. I'm the worst on tuning stuff, and so I am struggling.
I adjusted the electric choke to the left just to keep it running, but I'm needing gas for it soon, running out. I feel my major malfunction is the idle can't be adjusted till I figure out why it has no power. Of course nobody can say not being there, so I plug on as usual....maybe I have a vacuum line off, but don't see one that's obvious, but in plugging the Vac adv hose trying to time it, , then hooking it back up, see no change in RPM'S. I would think that should happen. Hope to finish before the weather goes south.
maybe I have to turn on the Ac switch to get power to the solenoid. Nothing in my book on anything on this subject. I'm so close, but not beaten yet.

Jay Dee

A couple more things about this suburban. On the top of the carb toward the front there is an electronic fuel valve ( gray), it connects to a 2 pinned plug. There is also on the thermostat housing another plug with one pin that senses temperature , I believe works in conjunction with this other thing on the carb.
I have never known whether either of these were working, and this vehicle has no plug in for using a diagnostic tool, as it was made from the factory without one, but has the control module under the glove box. I call it the albatross of suburbans as it fell between the changing technologies. If neither of these works, that may be the problem. The temp switch to my understanding runs the carb richer when water is cold and leaner when hot, and the gray valve on top front of the carb controlds the richness of gas as the vehicle changes altitudes, or at least that is what I recall it was for,......so new question for the carb experts: how do you test these two items with an ohm meter to find out if they are working? If this vehicle did not have this extra altitude changing valve on it, it would be much easier to get to run correctly.
Hey Henry, If you are still watching this thread....do you have any experience with this type carb , my problem, or any advice that might assist me.

Jay Dee

Well, I've found out timing a car by vacuum, is not the correct way , but , we all learn sometimes as we go.. I guess once I got lucky,but have tried henrys advice, to get pinging, but can't hear any, but I did take the ride out yesterday again, but it was obviously not correct as it had no top end, so I baby'd it till I got it back. I drove it maybe 10 miles total . Found I was right , that the idle solenoid energised from the switch for the AC, but still can't see the timing mark on the dampner with the timing light. Painted the mark white, even on the front edge, but think maybe the dizzy might need looked at again, by setting #1 piston back to TDC, Then checking to see where the rotor is pointing, as the guys at motor vehicle might have taken the dizzy out to get it to pass at emissions when it had the worn chain on it several years back, and that may explain that( but can't recall , but may be why I see no mark to set the initial timing.) Sorry again to load up this thread , but I am trying best I can with no responses lately . I didn't use a piston stop, when I had it apart, but, the dampners zero on the 0 mark on timing cover, lined up the timing marks when I installed the timing set, and if that were wrong,from what I've read, it souldn't even run , If I was off, so ,I may just have to take it to a shop to get it set up, if I can't get it right. I don't want to do damage to the kids engine, but never had a mark I couldn't see. It seems the symptoms where I had it last was retarded too much, as I'm flopping like a fish blindly trying to set it since I can't see the timing mark no matter how I rotate the dizzy, there was no total timing or I would have top end. Thought maybe I should shine the light up from underneath to see If I can see anything, or should I have someone in the ride with it in gear with their foot on the brake to set it ? The one day at first when it ran good, It would barely idle low in gear, but then I messed with it again, and lost that mark. I 'm close, but still no cigar. Maybe I have a vacuum leak as when I take off the Vac Advance hose to plug it, there's no change In RPM'S, but a little bit more of an increase when I put it back on after blindly attempting to set the dizzy. Getting pretty frustrated about now.

Jay Dee

Ok, I couldn't see the timing mark, and its because of a reason I have never seen. It has to do with the ECM. IF anybody knows the proper procedure, I sure could use a little advice from a manual for an 86 or 87 Suburban, or truck , with either a carburetor, or fuel injection, with an ECM. I will explain what I have discovered, then try to link you to a video that shows the answer, but, my problem now is,... how to do it correctly.
In a video I located BELOW, another fellow was trying to find the timing mark on an 87 Chevy square body truck, with fuel injection, and an ECM, it seems the ECM, will not allow the mark to be seen until it is disconnected from the ECM.
THE GUY STATES IN HIS MANUAL IT SAYS , there is a plug behind the distributor, but in looking for a long time, he couldn't find it. That's because it isn't there, ....but it is below the vacuum booster , where there is 2 plugs , one with a SINGLE grey wire with a black stripe, connecting to a plug THAT IS RUBBER WITH A BLADE CONNECTOR INSIDE you must unplug to set the timing. Another One Above this one, has several wires coming out of it,( as I said the other, only one with the black stripe, which is lower coming out of a loom in the area stated above.)
He said to just disconnect the single wire w/ Black stripe, and start the car, and set the timing at 0. Well, in my case, I did that, but the car wouldn't start. I THOUGHT.... maybe I need more gas, so I gave some, ...still no start, .....I gave it some more.....and nothing...etc.... So I plugged the plug back together and tried it and ..BANG! It backfired out the exhaust due to too much unburned fuel.
I gave it a little more AFTER, and it started up.....the car wasn't warm yet, so my question is .....if I get it hot first then pull that plug, will it still run? Can damage be done to the ECM, IF not done correctly? This is what I need to find out. OR...Did I pull the wrong plug?
Regardless, the man states this was something only done for one OR TWO years, but that Chevy made some weird combinations, like for instance some were 305,s some 350's, some had Fuel Injection, some had Carbs. Might even have 454's. Of course if you recall, this one has an ECM under the glove box, and a carb with an electromagnetic grey plug for adjusting the carb fuel for altitude changes, and the temp sensor into the thermostat housing, although, I am unsure if either or both are related to this canundrum. When it backfired, it sounded like a large caliber ( 44mag)handgun, and everybody around heard it, and blew black stuff into the snow, almost a foot across. Anyway, I know the ECM is reset by unplugging the neg cable, to allow it to reset, but in still using the temp slider on MAX AC, but not turning on the fan, the car would idle in gear due to the solenoid getting power. Might not need that to be on, if I knew how the proper procedure is to be done to set the basic timing, and once set to 0 instead of 8°, since this is the albatross of Suburbans in my opinion.....how is it done right , ....since he only briefly explains. I will add the video here now, and hope somebody has done this before, and can advise as to correct procedure. I will test drive it tomorrow where its set now, until I get more detailed advise. Here it is, maybe this will help someone in the future? I believe it is the trick in solving my dilemma. HELP?...ANYBODY OUT THERE ?? Henry?

You Tube

Jay Dee

Well I'm back ( yippee) with more info to share, as I am still seeking help, but no responses from here, just when I need it most...disappointing.
ok regardless, I found another video, and will share it, but first report latest test. Took it out today on a 30 mile trip, beginning, it ran great, idles ok, but after going 15 miles, it started not idling right , in fact too low, so I tried adjusting the solenoid up a bit, but didn't seem to help much....maybe that plug came undone, not sure, as it got dark on the way back, and just kept putting it in neutral at lights, but trip out, it ran fantastic, so tomorrow I'll look into it closer. This video is more for this year vehicle, as the changes in 87, may have been different, but this one shows another approach to bypass the ESC, sorry I'm not a mechanic, so sometimes I don't get all the terminology right, but I still fix these pieces of crap anyway.
This guy makes a bypass plug you can make yourself ot purchase....I have not proceeded on this course yet as I am just finding this out tonight, so it will have to wait till manana. Regardless I am attaching this video to help others for future reference, so my thanks to this guy. More as I discover it, and will post results. Here's the link:
https://youtu.be/QjBqCAZGG38
Expected to hear from oilcanhenry, but he must be busy...on another note, ...out here things have been really bad after this big fire disaster last week, it started less than a mile from us...FEMA is letting people down ,as when I was flooded out in 13, we got no help at all from them, and lived on the street in a old motorhome for 4 years, it was not easy, lost a son to leukemia, and just previously another was murdered. Our pets both died during that time from cancer, and we got O help from them regarding personal needs,waited for an appointment with our congressman for a whole year,( who is now the Governor), but when the day came he went to see the pope, and his staff told us we weren't important enough not to burden you with it, but there was much more, + it was a nitemare... so will just suffice to say... I have lived it myself. Was under a misconception that FEMA was a good thing, but from personal experience and talking to MANY others in disasters across the nation , found most all I have met had nothing good to say about them. If the wind had changed direction,as it was at times 110mph fanning the flames like a blowtorch, we would have been burned out too, as almost 1000 homes were a total ashpit loss. We.. Just lucked out . Reality is hell. The stories are just as I expected and heard some more first hand tonight at the store that were where victims renting were evicted, and how they lied about not refusing them help, because they did. After the shooting at the local grocery store in the past year by a 21 yr old mulim kid ( who wasn't from our locality) , that happened just up the street killing 10, most I personally knew, many people, as in this recent fire donated money, millions in fact, but the state and city decided they wanted to use some for other things, other than helping the victims families, many are poor, renting, and barely getting by, and they could have bought every family of the ones killed a home, but , they got victimized AGAIN basicly in my opinion. Anyway, you don't know what its like till you are a victim, and easier to say than live. People here are really suffering about now , some burned alive, and many family pets. SO IF you have a minute one day, Send good thoughts their way , that helps more than you might think, and count your blessings.

Jay Dee

Finally figured out the procedure. Warm up the car, pull off the lower plug under the master cylinder area while running , plug vacuum openings , set timing, @ 0°
plug plug back together while still running, hook up vacuum lines back to Vac Adv, etc( air cleaner) from there make other adjustments IE: air fuel mixture screws, choke, etc.) Timing marks will not show without unhooking line from distributor ....mine was orange w/ Bl stripe wire that goes to control module.
my problem now is nothing more than it runs great holds idle fine, till you drive a few miles , then it acts like it will hold idle at lights, but slowly kicks down to stall.
this tells me there is a vacuum leak somewhere. I got a hint it might just be the brake booster, as occasionally brake pedal is hard to push and stop the vehicle. Other times, its fine, so thinking it might be going out slowly, but then again It might be the hook up valve that goes into the booster.
Of course I will test all vacuum systems, pull offs, vac Adv, Cruise Control, EGR, PCV, vac booster, etc and tell you later what it was, or if ANY of that's what it was. Still using the max AC switch on to set idle, but that shouldn't be necessary, it should idle without that. Might be the gray connector on the carb doesn't work. So might be a variety of possibilities. One thing I know is ok, is the transmission vacuum modulator is good, because when they crap out they suck transmission oil into the intake and it puts out a huge cloud of pure thick white smoke. I have already experienced that one years ago. When that happens you need to turn off the car + go immediately to an auto parts store for another modulator, so you don't burn up your transmission , then refill whatever transmission oil you are down back to full. Sometimes you might have to adjust the shift points where the line hooks up to it.( under the tube)
I had a few more questions, but it is obvious to me nobody is responding to any of my questions since henry. ( hey henry). Question would have been carb related.